I’ve just added an update to the previous post, but in case anyone hasn’t spotted it I think I’ll do a quick recap.
Today the Manchester Evening News printed an article entitled “C-Charge Good For Us”. The article concerns a report commissioned by pressure group United City and written by Manchester academic Leif Jerram. Let’s look at the facts:
- The leading light in United City (and the member quoted in the article) is Ken Knott of property company Ask Developments. Ask Developments have donated a huge sum of money to the Manchester Labour Party.
- Leif Jerram is a Labour Party member, activist, and was a local government candidate for Withington ward in May.
So we have a report on the congestion charge, commissioned and paid for by a big Labour donor and compiled and written by a Labour activist and aspiring Councillor. It’s really not worth the paper it is written on and should be filed neatly in the recycling bin.
What can you say. Speaks volumes about what has been put out in this so called consultation. You know what they say ‘a spoon full of spin helps the congestion charge go down’.
Martin you’re a prolific commenter, when are you going to get your own blog…?
Iain,
One of the many joys of reading your blog for a Labour supporter is watching the Liberals agree with more or less everything you say in the comments left here; whilst invariably airing their own internal party dirty linen on a public forum, hosted by a politician from a different party.
Please, don’t encourage them to go elsewhere - for the sake of the entertainment provided on your own site!
Tom.
Tom,
If the Labour party in Salford bothered to update their blog more than once every two months it might provide something to write about.
Myself and Ian are hopefully educated people who look beyond party whips to give true representation. This is in contrast to the Labour group who seem content to mimic in parrot style the whit and wisdom of their ‘estemed leaders’.
If you prefer to have someone else make up your mind for you and tell you what is best for you then that is your own choice.
Martin,
You miss my point: Liberals agreeing with Tories in public and in print on policy without providing amendments or alternative solutions creates the amusing situation where both seem to be acting as one.
Fair enough if you are content with that scenario. I’d expect at least a few defections (a la former Cllr Perkins) if it continues that way.
Not sure which ‘estemed leader’ [sic] I’m mimicking in parrot style here but I’m sure it’s a wise one!
Tom.
A labour supporter tom. Soon like the dodo i hope extinct, If you wish for real entertainment take a trip to the council and watch your masters at work. For your informstion i am a memeber of a opposition group like councillor lindley and we both have our own agenda. But the same aims to rid this city of New Labour. Being a member of the Liberal Democrat party offers me the chance to freely express myself unlike the labour group.Dirty washing no Tom Free speech something your party will never offer to it’s members. You and many others support a party which as traded it’s identity to get elected and now allmost dead. And sooner the better
joe
Tom, should ourselves and the Tories or even Labour for that matter argue just for arguments sake. I have different ideological views from Ian but the main aim of our roles is to represent what the people want not what we think would be best for them.
The people who elected me did not give me the right to impose a Liberal Democrat ideology on them, they did it because they were tired of being ignored.
Many issues affecting this city, people are content with elected officials making decisions, but when the people talk it is the job of the elected official to listen.
If the Labour group seem content living in the past of party rhetoric and partisan divide then so be it, as for myself I believe this is a time for change.
Joe,
Thanks for the good humoured and clear response. I ought to point out though - even as a member of the Labour Party - I am ‘allowed’ to post on this blog and any other without fear of repercussions. The LP does still offer free speech to it’s members, believe it or not!
I’ll leave the wisdom of posting publicly here about internal elections/personality clashes within your own group up to you…
Martin,
“The people who elected me did not give me the right to impose a Liberal Democrat ideology on them, they did it because they were tired of being ignored.”
I am pleased you accept that a vote for the Liberals is, more often than not, a protest vote - not a positive endorsement of your party’s policies.
“Many issues affecting this city, people are content with elected officials making decisions, but when the people talk it is the job of the elected official to listen.”
I couldn’t agree more. However, the electorate also have the right to know what the individuals/parties they elect stand for and how they will act when elected.
In that spirit, would you or Joe please say whether or not the Liberals would support a Tory administration to run Salford in the event of a hung Council in 2010 or thereafter?
Given Cllr Owen’s comments about our host Cllr Lindley (”naive and wet behind the ears”!!) in last week’s Salford Advertiser column, I can’t bet on the outcome being a positive one for Salford people if both were co-operating in the same coalition.
Tom.
Tom - some interesting comments there.
Free speech most certainly does not apply to Salford Labour Party Councillors. I remember the almighty rollocking I know was given to a handful of Labour Councillors (I think your mother may have been one of them) for having the temerity to vote with the opposition on a procedural issue.
I could also point to the shabby “have your cake and eat it” deal between Cllr Merry and the Labour Councillors in Little Hulton and Walkden over St George’s, whereby they were “allowed” to vote against it on the condition that they didn’t speak out in public thus bringing a whole stack of Labour Councillors along with them. I remember when Mr Harte first came to speak before the Council, most of the Labour Group clapped his questions and showed their support, yet they still cravenly surrendered like sheep and voted to close the school.
As regards the make-up of the Council post-2010, I’m glad that you accept that the Labour administration has run out of steam and is likely to lose office in the next electoral cycle. Can you imagine Salford Labour members even four years ago speculating about what might happen in the event of a hung Parliament?
I wasn’t going to dignify Cllr Owen’s rather cheap shot with a response, but as you’ve mentioned it, I’m really rather disappointed that he has chosen to make an issue of my age instead of actually debating the issue at hand - I thought only Labour Councillors did that.
Iain,
I won’t go over the right’s and wrong’s of the St Georges closure, as it’s been gone over in detail here and elsewhere many times.
There does however seem to be some confusion between ‘free speech’ and ‘party discipline’ in what is asserted. You know very well that in order to ensure the latter, the former can be permitted behind closed doors when decisions are taken. But once a collective decision is reached it is important that this decision is carried through and defended with as much unity as possible. That rule applies regardless of the party you belong to.
Technically, those Labour councillors who opposed the closure of St George’s were allowed ‘free speech’; some were permitted to vote against the whip without risking sanction - which isn’t quite the same thing as denying someone a say on the matter. Splitting hairs perhaps, but you understand the logic of what I’m saying.
This issue may come back to bite the Tories if you agree to co-operate with another party in the future on decisions for Salford. If the ‘free speech’ card is played by that party in the wrong context then it will be very difficult to run a Council at all, indecision and chaos will ensue as a result.
Of course I don’t accept Labour has run out of steam and will always fight to win elections based on a positive programme for Salford. The point is, if the Liberals intend to join forces with your party after an election then the electorate have the right to know that they are voting for that option in advance.
Shabby deals like the one nearly pulled off by Cllr Houlton joining the Liberals days after his election as a CAPer makes far more of a mockery of democracy than the exercising of the party whip on a day-to-day basis.
Tom.
One could ask the same questions of the Labour Group, Tom. I imagine that the personal animosity between Cllrs Owen and Merry would prevent any Lib/Lab deal under current circumstances, but both have a fragile hold on the leadership of their respective groups. Have the Labour Group ruled out any deals in the event of them losing control? Can the electorate be sure that a Labour Group under a new leader stick to a decision made now? Of course not.
As for Cllr Houlton, well the links between the Liberal Democrats and the
CommunistCommunity Action Party in Wigan are well known, which was why the only real opposition then and now to the Labour Party in Irlam and Cadishead is the Conservative Party.I must say Tom your attitude dissapoints. You are a sign to me of a hopefully by-gone era.
You cannot see beyond political colours, innoctranated to the point of submission to the all knowing knowledge of the party leadership.
I yearn for the day when I can debate a topic when I dont have party politics and point scoring thrown back at me.
Judge me by my actions, not that of my party.
Can any politician say his or her party fits them perfectly. You would give up your right to object on the grounds of party discipline. Not one of historys greatest running themes.
A vote for me was not a protest vote, it was a vote for someone wants to be different from what has been before, it was a vote for change.
You and everyone who resorts to attack politics of ‘your party did this’, ‘your member said that’, will only work to help the growth of apathy among the many men and women who are tired of paying thousands to allow a group of people to insult each other instead of working together to create policies to bring this city forward.
Well Joe little doubt after you hoped for the extinction of Labour supporters which party you support and at least in admitting that you are makeing it clear that your faction will support the tories.In a previous posting I suggested we could at least see if there is common ground between us only to be met with rather disappointing sneering. I think Ian you show more understanding of tory internal politics than the position in the Salford Labour Group and can assure you I do not feel the slightest bit fragile! I hope I would be courtous enough to talk to any elected member of the council unless they were a member of a fascist party but of course there is no guarantee of courtesy in return!
John do you think you would be allowed to continue if you were the leader that lost Labour control of the Council…?
I have no intention of finding out!
Your colleague Tom here seems to have written you off already!
Sorry John i am a little confused! i have seen the National Labour party fall in to choas.Look at todays papers. You must be concerned each week when you read the local advertiser. You and your party are being ripped apart. The roads are like something you would find in india.What ever propaganda you feed the people over crime it’s rubbish, The homeless grow, You backdown under public presure,the courts in swinton,swinton open spaces, the womens centre. I cannot support you or the conservatives but if i have to work with the devil i will. The treatment i have recived from the conservative group on the council even though we are yards apart on policy as been fair. On the other hand some of your key players treat every thing we do as political ploys, they forget the long term goals helping the people of the city of Salford.If we must fight leave it till may 2010. You have my respect for what you are. If we sat back and worked together more often imagine the results.
Joe
Martin,
Good grief. If some of your previous postings here (’a spoonful of spin helps the congestion charge go down’ etc) don’t constitute party political point scoring then I’m not sure what does!
Last time I checked this was a political blog, set up to discuss politics, which is what I’ve attempted to do. I’m sorry if that disappoints you.
I’ve avoided personal insults - even agreeing with you in one paragraph - sadly this hasn’t been reciprocated in some of your general comments about me being unable to think for myself and giving up my right to object to anything. No offence taken incidentally!
My question wasn’t about what your party had done in the past - it was precisely about what it intended to do in the future.
I look forward to reading the Liberal’s future Focus leaflets in Swinton South and across Salford, that will no doubt not attack Labour for anything whatsoever, nor ever contain anything critical of any other party.
Tom.
PS Iain, the best thing to remember in political life is: never write anyone off!
Tom,
With your regards about focus leaflets , I would love to engage in a purely policy debate but I have little hope such an action would be reciprocated.
If you wish to discuss plans for the future I will be more than happy to. Call me cynical but I view many of your comments as a double edged sword, ‘at least you agree a vote for the Lib Dems was a protest vote’ if that is your idea of pleasentries you may keep them.
I look forward to more debates in the future.
Martin,
The Liberals have a long history of attack politics, and one of the worst reputations historically for aggressive tactics in leaflets and publicity. You must have realised this when you stood for election under those colours?
In recent times, Labour and the Tories can be said to have caught up with this approach - however the Liberals have for many decades set the bar quite high when it comes to attacking other parties.
Even you must accept that part of politics is about undermining your opponent’s case, as much as making a positive argument for your own proposals? You may succeed in altering this history of negativity in the Salford Lib Dems - I wish you good luck, as you’ll certainly need it.
What I wrote about a Liberal vote being a protest vote was slightly more nuanced than you make out, rooted in truth and meant some humour. It wasn’t my idea of a pleasantry, but was nevertheless a POLITICAL point - not one aimed at you PERSONALLY.
If we accept these boundaries, I too look forward to debating political points with you in the future. You never know, we might even agree on something from time to time!
Tom.
Hi Tom
Just like to make some comments.my involvment with the Liberal Democrat party began about seven years ago.Untill then i had never seen a Focus Leaflet.I asked to look at some LABOUR ONES.If i was to read and belive what had ben put out,i would support drugs,crack houses. guns, youth crime etc. You and i know this is rubbish. The Labour group rule Salford and the country. Read the paper look at the news in 2010 the Labour group will lose control of this country and with luck the city. I have had to fight hard to win in Swinton South and in 2010 i will fight to furture the Liberal Democrat base.The conservatives nationaly and localy have most of the cards at present. But i belive our support is growing. And i can assure you we will expand. Are you happy your party leaders take time out in china and the south of france? The let them eat cake situation with regards to an ice rink. All this and people cannot afford rental to feed the old and infirm at our local community centres!What do new labour offer the people high food cost,War,id cards, billions wasted on systems that do not work. And a police force of young kids with no more power than parking attendents. I suggest Cllr Merry and Mr brown think long and hard over there futures.
joe
Joe
since tom was my agent at the last election I would suggest that you refrain from personally offensive comments. You have lapsed into typical lib dem vicious rhetoric. just to take an example you claim that we caved in on the womens centre. In fact you attended a demo that demanded we hand over the money without any assurance that the problems it had faced about the inproper use of money were solved. Unlike you who turned up at the demo had your picture taken and then went home I took the trouble to talk to people and try to find a solution. The result we were able to find a way forward.
Secondly yes I did go to China on an organised delegation with lib dems and tories . A trip that your leader asked me to take a lib dem with me and was supported by the tories. If I felt that it could improve trade between salford and China I would do so again. Indeed I would be attacked if I did not do so. The South of france which you appear to believe was a holiday was at the request of the URC who wanted me to attend a meeting of property developers.
Since the lib dems from liverpool were also there I can only believe one of two things. Either you think Salford is too small to compete or you would rather leave the course clear for your chums from liverpool!
The problem is Joe you pretend you want to work with us and then come out with this personal claptrap. Why dont you take the trouble to talk to us occasionaly and find out the truth that however inperfectly we are trying to do our best for the people of this city rather than engageing in this sort of nonsense
John,
How do you have the temerity to state ‘if we took the time the talk to you occasionally’. I have been a councillor since May and been met with nothing but vague responses, blunt refusals and what can only be classed as obstrustion in an attempt to open up dialogue on a number of issues.
To suggest use of personally offensive comments is something used by my fellow Councillors is my view rank hypocrasy. I have been faced with constant comments because of my refusal to bend to Coucillors timetables who seek to make the role of Councillor a full timed payed job and thus dictate their own schedule. This is something you have yet to address, although given the time it takes to recieve a reply from yourself, I still live in hope.
Regards your trip to China, where are the results? what new innovative business ideas did you get from a country with a human rights record such as China?
Regards the south of France, other than a nice tan, what results did you get?
Do you truly believe you are trying to do the best for this city? I sought to find out regards the Tif bid what will Salford get, besides already funded projects, it seems not much. I asked if the bid will create thousands of jobs how many will go to the likes of Salford? it seems not many.
We need to embrace bi-partisan co-operation, but on whoose terms?
john to talk is i beliee a two way process. perhaps we could talk about the colapse of say swinton shopping centre. Perhaps you would like to talk to Paul. Who’s Paul well i would not expect you to no. second generation market trader. This week gave up his buisness . I would hae liked to talk about paul with one of your cabinet, But no did not wish to talk to me! Personal offensive comments. well let me see i have been accused by one of your cabinet of being a political parasite.. My son attacked before starting work in the council,shall we go on. The womens centre well not really the place to discuss in open forum. But a quick picture! no john i joined my fellow councillors to force this coucnil to have sense and look again at this situation.We you at any of the meetings i attended NO
so don’t comment without the facts. This week well john i am trying to understand how a 80 old women and other memebers are struggling to feed the aged at a salford community centre at sixteen pounds 25 p per hour rent. They are cutting back there service to the community. Perhaps we could could cut back on trips out and put the money into the community were it belongs. If your agent as a problem i would loe to meet and discuss politics oer coffee if you are willing to pay you are welcome
joe
rush job ian i was writing it on the move. And miffed. I will rewrite it and put down some more real facts. God It’s hard work with LABOUR
Joe,
For the record; I have no personal problem with any response you have written here, except that I disagree with you on some matters of policy and approach (as you would expect).
If you want to meet for a beverage of any variety, then I’m always happy to do so. Especially if John’s paying!
Tom.
Sorry you were miffed I am of course not allowed to feel miffed when your son suggests I was in the South of France working on my tan. The last two postings illustrate the problem. If you dare to question your statements all you get is annother load of invective. I suggest you take a deep breath and think about how it appears to someone outside of your group when you make some of the assertions you do.
Its not often I have sympathy with Ian Lindley but I thought Normans attack in the Advertiser went beyond the issue into the personal and the tories thought you went too far in attacking the mayor at the last election.
Martin I have to bear in mind in replying to your EMails that you are prone to copying them to Neal Kealing without warning so I will always make sure that they are factual and are incapable of being misunderstood. If you think that I do not believe the policies are in the best interests of Salford then say what you do believe is my motivation. I am happy to explain in some depth what we got from the Chinese visit and from our visit to MIPPIM but I notice you do not condem your Lib Dem colleagues who attended.
We have seen in Salford over the period I have been leader a rise in educational standards, an increase in Income, a rise in Employment and an increase in Population. I remain content to be judged on my record and unlike Joe I do not call for the “extinction” of my opponents!
John. The tories where not happy with my attacks on the mayor? Rubbish dont belive all you are told. I would hate to comment what i was told from a top tory. We are not playing games. You have the power to inflict labour policy on the people of this city. I wish for the Liberal democrat party to put forward our policy.Education standards raising. John if i could quote here freely the comments i recive from people working in the education sector you would have no answers. A rise in enployment. Try to get a Job in this city over 50 years of age! an increase in population Yes John i can not argue. you have me there most of my friends fall into that catergory. Like most of the country. Have you any idea on the level of migrant workers within the city. What did you get from China John besides one more stamp in your passport please tell us. Could you offer a breakdown of investment in the city, which relates to your trip. Yes i do condem any party wasting public money. Please relate that to the Blackpool fiasco. I still have the cuttings. Normans comments well ian is big enough and he as the wit and the abilty to answer i don’t think he needs any one to defend him. I
Tom
Any time you are passing through Swinton you are welcome to have a drink and discuss politics on a friendly fashion. Martin is trying to organise a debate in the near future we would welcome input and if you and John would like to come maybe IAN we could have a good night. Don’t belive everything about us we have some strong views but we have one aim the people of this city
Regards
Joe
I sent Norman an e-mail when the article was published but alas I have not yet had the courtesy of a reply. I don’t mind having my comments criticised - that’s politics and I’m more than capable of keeping my side of the argument - but I was very disappointed that he had to resort to comments of a personal nature, especially as both myself and his own deputy leader Cllr Cooke have run into similar attitudes from a number of Labour Councillors over the past few years.
John I may be young but one thing that has become apparent in my years is that politicians seem to work quicker when the press have their eye on proceeding, you may be the exception to the mold but I think if I hadnt kept ‘cc’ing’ the press in I would be still waiting for a reply period.
I dont know what you would have me do regards my colleagues, I can no more reprimand them than they can do the same to me, in the end of the day we are all free thinkers and let the electorate be the judge, better that than abiding by a party whip and having your political career curtailed by an element outside of your control.
If you are happy to explain the benefits of communist China in a capitalist Salford I would be happy to listen. When are your office hours John 9 to 5 ?.
Perhaps you could explain to me their support of the Sudan government in Khartoum for what is in essence for business gains.
You may have seen rises in Income, Employment etc, I think the phrase I am looking for is ‘riding the crest of a wave’ of economic growth, lets hope that when that wave crashes with the ecomomic slowdown which I am sure you will join the rest of the politicians in trouble at present and use as an excuse that your leadership skills arn’t swept away.
Martin as I am going on holiday ( not to france or China but pembrokeshire I am afraid) I cannot take you up immediately on your kind offer but if you want to speak to me wheen I am back I would be happy to explain my record in opposing the foreign policy of China the USA and the old Soviet Union. Personally I think a night of politics is a good idea but Joe the problem is that everytime I produce a fact you claim to know someone who disagrees. I joined the party as soon as I was able to because I wanted to fight for a better life for people. I have learned that to achieve that you have to make hard decisions and I am happy to talk about that even to sceptics like you Martin and Ian
If I could just make a polite request… could everyone please learn to spell my name…?
Joe,
Like John I am happy to debate politics in most settings, and as long as an event isn’t used to set anyone up (a la Salford Star interviews) then I’m happy to participate.
I would add though that the views I have expressed here on the Liberals aren’t based on hearsay or rumour, but direct personal experience of campaigning in elections against them both here in Salford and in other parts of the country.
Tom.
sorry Iain I blame Martin and Joe for leading me astray!
Thanks Tom for the reply. John have a good holiday,and to all iain included why do we not go for a debate in the council chamber and invite the public? questions from the public on the night. You ask John for the public to be involved then lets do it. Tom i spoke to the Salford Star over the interview and i was a little shocked. I can argue with John but i felt the interview well not to my taste. The Star said John loved it! Oh by the way John we do have something in common Sci fi. Shame It’s not politics. Serious note when you get back can we push that meeting over the budget and poosible if you have the time i can push in some other bits
Regards
Joe
Love to discuss SF with you some time as long as you dont accuse me of living in a fantasy world! I felt the star interview was marginally better than some of the other coverage I had had in the magazine willl try and find time for budget and other discussion. And on that note of relative harmony I think its time to go on holiday.