Cllr Iain Lindley’s Diary

26 Responses to “Pink Rink Call-In”

1. 1 joe oenill
   Nov 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

   Well it seems i am now Known in Labour circles as Cllr Scrooge.Not sure if i should put it on my ballot papar in 2010. Two things stood out today.
   1.Liberals and Conservatives can work today.
   2.And unlike the Labour group who could not jump up fast enough when i felt we had got something wrong and did not vote with my group. I have seen two very brave honest men willing to stand up for there belief and vote against the Labour leadership.Sorry John if i am wrong but i do not belive the whip is the best way for democratic principle.Of course on wednesday i would be very surpraised if the whip was not out in force.I for one will look forward to xmas more than anything this year due to the birth of my grandaughter,and yes John i did take exception to your comment.Lets work within our means and give this city the best,lets plan iy listen to what the people need,This week i went on a course on eoonomics i will willingly pass on my notes and the books it was intersesting i think you may like it. See you wednesday hope you brew a good coffee
   Joe

2. 2 Tom Murphy
   Nov 17th, 2008 at 5:26 pm

   Joe, or Cllr Grinch – as you’re known in this particular Labour circle…

   1. I hope this point is retained and repeated by every Labour canvasser between now and 2010, especially in Langworthy.

   2. If you think you’ll have a snowball in hell’s chance of maintaining any kind of coalition/electoral agreement without some sort of whipping operation in place, then I’ll personally turn up at the next Lib Dem meeting I’m invited to and give everyone a biscuit.

   I sincerely hope the economics course you attended covered neo-liberalism and the Chicago School, as it’s best to be forewarned as to the kind of direction the Lib Dems will be taking Salford if your plans succeed!

   Politics aside though – congratulations to you and your family on the birth of your grandaughter. Good news.

   Tom.

3. 3 Kenneth Adam
   Nov 17th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

   Well better to be known as Scrooge rather than Toad of Toad Hall as dear Mr.Merry is now known. Tenants are simply sick to death of our HRA being used for propping up crazy ideas such as pink rinks, insisting that the IN SALFORD LOGO is now put on all ALMO leaflets and signs at great expense,yet homes need millions spending on them due to the neglect of this crazy government and Toads Cabinet.
   Continue to stand by who your principles and you shall reap the rewards in 2010, when the electorate will wave bye bye to this pathetic administration who refuse to listen to those they are accountable to

4. 4 Kenneth Adam
   Nov 17th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

   Have Just been told that Salix Homes have spent £2000 propping up this crazy scheme. No consultation with tenants as the excuse is that the advertising budget has been used!! I wonder what the Audit commission’s inspectors will say when I raise it at this weeks meetings. No wonder Mr.Merry was so keen to have Kevin Scarlett as Chief Executive, jobs for the boys. Perhaps we should ask Churchill Insurance to sponsor the Labour Group because their all nodding dogs!!!

5. 5 Jay McCormack
   Nov 18th, 2008 at 10:48 am

   If the elected members of this City spent as much time and effort on putting this once great City back in order, as they do sniping at each other like overgrown school children, we would all be the better for it.

6. 6 Cllr. Steve Cooke
   Nov 18th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

   Tom,

   For reference – your suggestion that the (Salford) Lib Dems ascribe or may chose in the future to ascribe to the the Chicago School of economics is laughable. Though given the confusion in different kinds of Liberalism on this and the other side of the Atlantic I can understand your ignorance.

   I’m quite interested to know why you think being able to work together on particular issues of concern is the same as ‘coalition/electoral agreement’. Perhaps you’re just choosing to see what you’d like rather than the reality of the situation?

7. 7 joe oenill
   Nov 18th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

   I wonder Tom what all those people are thinking who recived request for redundency or the ones who had there pay cut? perhaps they can forget everything for a couple of hours and skate or perhaps take in some xmas shoping accross the way.Sit down for a little and read in Salford? Of course you will have to feed the meter there is lots of parking space available,perhaps we could have put the fair on there.Perhaps they could get quotes to have there gardens done. The people who repaired the council lawns only charged £2.000 thinking of asking them to do mine. If you and John think Cllr Scrooge fits ok.Perhaps i was worrying to much about those people i was elected to represent.Tell you what tom read the feedback on the manchester evening news get the feeling of real people.Sorry tom thanks for the comment over katie she is my xmas gift

8. 8 Tom Murphy
   Nov 19th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

   Steve,

   Permit me to elaborate. Neo-liberalism refers, of course, to Thatcher’s favourite economic rule book. Some Liberals in Salford seem so keen to work with the Tories in a future coalition on the Council, I merely want you all to be prepared for the economic tonics which may lie ahead.

   No confusion there. Although, the Lib Dems seem to be fundamentally confused as to whether to go with the Marxist leaning critique of Labour offered by the Salford Star, or the alternative criticism offered by the Tories from the other end of the spectrum. A stance that cannot be allowed to escape scrutiny by the electorate.

   Your colleague Joe has a few times written quite openly about ’supping with the devil’ in order to get Labour out next time, and yet denounces the party whip as unnecessary. Well, believe me, if you go into coalition with the Tories you’ll need it; that was my point and, quite frankly, the reality of the situation your party faces. However, as usual with the Lib Dems – reality and fiction seem to be colliding quite farcically once again.

   I apologise unreservedly for my ‘ignorance’!

   Tom.

9. 9 joe oenill
   Nov 20th, 2008 at 5:49 am

   Ton you should have been at council yesterday. I could not put in to words the performance of your party. Do you have a Dog? i do lovely little fellow called Bruno every morning he comes to me and i rub is head he then turns over and i rub is belly thats just what your lot looked like under John. Whipped i was supposed to have coffeee with him yesterday but after that experience i could not sit down and be happy with my self.One thing tom pleased be assured the people of this city will see leaflets coming through the doors asking some serious questions about your party and i hope they wake up to the fact of how you and your party have put this city into the position it now stands at. Every one knows

10. 10 joe oneill
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 6:09 am

    sorry Iain pressed the wrong button…
    part two.
    the position with me and Norman but i will tell you one thing he never tries to stop me offering a view or voting with my gut feeling on any issue. You make the play time and time again over me and the conservatives. I state openly again. In 2010 it will offer this city the best chance of ousting John and i am a realist we must work together to achieve this. I came through the thatcher period,and i hope it never returns. People of this country have short memory spans. But some form of active working is the only real answer for us to force through the policies you say we do not have. I crave for the day to havethe ability to make change within this city,you will fight against. that is real democracy.Win or loose i will have been able to say i tried. Today i still feel i can hold my head up when i walk the streets,i have never been a yes man. Tell me something else tom. Why do the majority of the people who claim to be activist on the labour benches never speak or offer any form of view ar council? fear? i would give up if that ever happened in the party i represent.I am proud to sit with my group and i will fight to see it grow.I hope you have a good day in Langworthy but be honest this is one more seat i will trudge around with steve cooke his work with our candidate took it in may and i am sure we will landslide it in 2010,fancy a side bet.
    regards
    joe

11. 11 Salix Homes tenant
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:03 am

    I don’t think the electorate will worry to much after 2010 to be rid of those who make decisions dat after day with no thought whatsoever for those who have elected them.

    Strange who our Labour Councillors will press their personal views “off the record” and then add the caveat that they have to toe the party is incredulous.

    We know many of them enjoy the perks plus the inflated allowances,and judging by the outbursts of one defeated candidate last May its plain to see.

    I did hope the bloody nose that Labour received would be a wake up call alas thick skins and no principles says it all for me.

12. 12 Steve Cooke
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:18 am

    Tom – your problem is that you’re still stuck in the outdated paradigm of left and right. The truth is that my party offers something different from Labour’s creaking bureaucratic nightmare of authoritarian control-freakery, and we’re miles away from Thatcherism.

    If the Salford Star offers legitimate criticism (and it usually does) then I don’t give an monkey’s whether the author is a Marxist. And if the Tories are right about something then I will say so – regardless of whether I disagree with their underlying ideology.

    Labour’s inability to escape the straight-jacket of left/right red/blue us/them gang-like mentality is what makes the leadership in the town hall unable to accept that anyone having a different opinion than their own might be right. Refusing to listen to opinions simply because of tribalism is a hallmark or foolishness and ignorance – and it’s why Labour will be booted out of power (that and their wasteful centralising quest for total state power).

13. 13 John Merry
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Joe I did wait a little time to see if you were going to show does that mean you dont want a coffee at any time. It seems that you only want to listen to our members if they are supporting you. I was struck when we had our meeting by the determination of our members to support the decisions made. It does seem difficult steve to understand how we can be accused of refusing to listen when you refuse to come and talk to us. Oh and Richard thanks for your friendly remarks on your Website but you see as a true Christian I have decided to forgive you but please dont claim to speak in my name.

14. 14 Richard Carvath
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    Oh you’re a Christian all of a sudden are you John Merry? [Is Labour suddenly worried about the Christian vote in Salford? It should be.] I find that a very interesting claim indeed, because I work with all the major orthodox Christian political campaigning groups in the UK and we are united in our opposition to abortion and homosexuality – as just two examples of fundamental Christian political stances to which you are fundamentally opposed (despite your claim to be a Christian). Well, John Merry ‘the Christian’, I invite you to explain your support for abortion and homosexuality any time you like, here or anywhere else.

    As for the ‘Richard Carvath Journals’, I think that what I say is fair and reasonable in the context in which I say it. As a Christian involved in politics I think it is acceptable to use satire occasionally, provided it is used proportionately, and you John Merry are a well-known, public political figure exercising considerable power… you know full well that you are a legitimate subject for political satire. You may not like being satirised but you are supposed to be a big boy so do me a favour and don’t try to impugn my Christian character just because I get a bit firm and direct with you sometimes, and remember, I’ve never stooped to implying that you’re a fascist.

    I sincerely hope that you are a Christian, John Merry, or that if you are not presently a Christian (whatever you may profess), that you will become a Christian. You must forgive me for doubting your claim though, because I am unaware that you have any recognisable Christian credentials whatsoever. You are certainly a man of politics but on the basis of your track record, on just two core Christian [political] areas, you are not pro-life and you are not pro-marriage/family, so I really struggle to accept your claim that you are a man of Christian faith.

15. 15 Iain
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    For your viewing pleasure, Richard.

16. 16 John Merry
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    You see there you go again defineing Christian as being those who agree with you. Yes I am a Christian although I do not make a big thing about it I am not sure that forgiveing you is “impugning my Christian Character” and I simply make the point that there are many Christians who find some of your views repulsive .

17. 17 Richard Carvath
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    Whilst I appreciate the intended humour and wit, and the quality of the acting performance, I’m afraid I cannot agree with the fictional President’s woeful misunderstanding of ancient Jewish law and the associated culture and practices. As so often in secular media programming, and here in the West Wing, Christian belief is portrayed without regard to context, motive, theology or any other considerations which ought to be applied if the treatment were to be accurate. Having said that I do think the West Wing is a great political drama series, and I suppose that as an occasional satirist I shouldn’t knock a bit of satire just because it’s my crowd on the receiving end!

18. 18 Iain
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    Richard, how do you judge when to take a literal interpretation of the Bible and when not to do so?

19. 19 joe oneill
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    Richard i am really sorry to be rude. but John is a man who has different political views than myself and i feel i can have a little dig and he gives as good back. But i do not feel happy with some of the comments of which are coming out with. I am not religious but my wife is,i am not happy with certian levels of sexual behaviour but it is a choice people make and i have no right to make any judgements i have gay friends who live there lives how they wish, My ex boss was gay.I have political friends with extreme political views
    of which i find hard to except but there choice it’s the world we live in. You have your views but some come a little strongly for my taste
    Joe

20. 20 Richard Carvath
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    That’s a very good question Iain and I must say I’m delighted to see your enthusiasm for Bible study.

    I’m afraid it is beyond the scope of a short, snappy blog-comment to answer your question satisfactorily, not least because I am mindful – as I reasonably suppose – that you would be unwilling to host the sort of heavyweight Christian discourse which I could submit to your blog but which you would almost certainly feel too uncomfortable about to publish [and in a sense I'd agree with your reticence to publish a heavy Christian discourse because this blog is probably not the best place for such content].

    Having said that, I would not wish to dampen your enthusiasm for exploring the Bible and how to understand its literal and figurative messages, and so I would like to say that you are most welcome to join me for Bible study any time that it is mutually convenient, or alternatively I can happily point you in the direction of any number of good churches in Salford which would be only too willing to help you in your exploration of Christianity and the Bible.

    The Alpha course is a Christian enquiry course which affords the opportunity for people with questions about God, the Bible and Christianity to learn more about the subject and ask in-depth questions in an informal and unpressured setting in the company of experienced Christians; Alpha courses are run by many churches in Salford (and there is probably an Alpha course near you in Walkden Iain).

    I know for a fact Iain that Elmwood Church (opposite Salford Royal Hospital) will be very happy to talk to you any time about Jesus, and also the Salvation Army on Station Road in Swinton, or Salford Elim Church (at Holy Angels, Moorfield Road, Irlam o th Height), to name just three Salford churches which would be delighted to talk with you about Jesus.

    Since you are a young man Iain, you might find the following church a particularly good church to attend or to seek further information about Christianity from [and though it is not my home church I often visit its evening service so I could chat with you there if you come along]: http://www.audaciouscitychurch.com
    I believe that Audacious are due to start a new Alpha course soon.

21. 21 John Merry
    Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    For the record Richard I am a confirmed member of the Church Of England and I did go through a crisis of faith when I lost my wife at the Age of 34. I expect satire. Was it really satire to accuse me of insulting the War Dead? Boy did we all laugh. I do not make any claims about immunity from criticism and I still forgive you

22. 22 Richard Carvath
    Nov 21st, 2008 at 2:45 pm

    I’m very sorry indeed that you lost your wife and you have my every sympathy John; I do not doubt that a day ever goes by when you do not think of her or when she is not with you in spirit. I’ve no doubt that every reader of this blog is well acquainted with the loss of precious loved ones, and so I think I can speak for every reader of this blog on this occasion when I say that we all wish you well and want the best for you in your personal life. As you know, to be a politician is to have a personal private life but also to have a political public life. Whilst I wish you every blessing in your personal life, I trust you accept that in regard of your politics we are, quite frankly, political enemies. We are deeply opposed on many socio-political issues.

    My comments in regard of you and Remembrance Day were strong… very strong. I’m well aware of how controversial the remarks were. As you know, my purpose in making those remarks was to acknowledge the Aborted Dead as well as the War Dead. I believe that was appropriate; I would not have ‘politicised’ Remembrance Day for any less serious issue than that of abortion. As a Christian, you will know how God is utterly opposed to even a single abortion – let alone the fast approaching figure of 7,000,000 in the UK alone in the last 40 years (and which is well over three times the total number of British War Dead throughout history). It was perhaps harsh to single you out personally, because you are not the only politician to support abortion, but I’m sure you would rather I ’satirise you’ than say that I claim the ‘right’ to kill you for my ’social convenience’ and then exercise that ‘right’. I thank you for your gracious forgiveness of myself and I hope that the 7,000,000 British Aborted Dead forgive you John Merry for your support of abortion.

23. 23 Tom Murphy
    Nov 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm

    Joe,

    That’s the one thing that baffles me; I don’t doubt you were and still are against Thatcher, all her works and empty promises – so why such enthusiasm for jumping into a coalition with her party?

    I’m happy to take your wager on Langworthy, however I’m a man of modest means so lets keep it to a managable amount.

    Steve,

    Me and my outdated paradigms eh! If the different ideas all of us hold are outdated, then why bother having political parties as we know them at all? What is there to define the Lib Dems against without these political beliefs that you argue are supposedly old hat?

    I’ve agreed with both Joe and Martin on this blog once or twice before, and I’m always pleased to give Iain a pat on the back when he gets something right. So I’m afraid you’ll have to go elsewhere to prove that Labour is completely intolerant of others views – which can’t always be said for the abuse that comes my way from the supposedly ‘Liberal’ Democrats.

    Apologies to all for adding to what is already a lengthy thread.

    Tom.

24. 24 Iain
    Nov 21st, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    Margaret Thatcher left Downing Street for the final time as Prime Minister on 28th November 1990. I was seven years old at the time and you would I believe have been nine. Martin O’Neill was six.

    I don’t mind have a debate about the effects – many good, some bad – Margaret Thatcher had on this country but the Conservative Party is no more Thatcher’s Party than the Labour Party is Foot’s Party.

25. 25 Richard Carvath
    Nov 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm

    You got that right Iain… the contemporary Conservative Party is definitely not Thatcherite!

    I was at big school [Moorside High, Swinton] when Thatcher left Number Ten. Fourteen years old… and Roxy Redpants was in the Fifth Form a year above… sigh… thems was the days.

26. 26 Tom Murphy
    Nov 22nd, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    Iain,

    Well, yes and no. You’re right Mrs T was deposed when you and I were children, and perhaps it is better if we concentrate on the effects of Thatcherism in the modern context. However that’s not to say either of us can’t remember particular aspects of that period with regret. Unemployment, for example, was a great difficulty for many of my school friends’ parents then.

    As for Thatcher’s impact on your party I’ll say this: all three of your major spokesmen (Cameron, Osborne and Hague) and, I suspect, a majority of the Tory Parliamentary Party would not be uncomfortable if I described them as ‘Thatcherites’. Whether they are or not in the literal sense is for others to decide Richard! Even so, I can only name about three Labour MPs in total nowadays who would compare their views favourably with the Foot era Labour Party.

    Cameron’s name check of the Blessed Margaret at this year’s conference received rapturous applause. For better or worse, Michael Foot’s mention would not get the same degree of affection from a Labour conference. The Iron Lady may not still be active, but her ideas still have a tremendous influence in the modern Conservative Party.

    Tom.

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